Extraction Shooters - What's Going On?

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Starting this as a general thread to discuss the blossoming trend of “extraction” games, particularly extraction shooters.

I have yet to play any that have held my attention beyond the initial novelty, and I’m trying to articulate why (and having some trouble, so hopefully starting this thread helps). With the recent release of Marathon and the high popularity of Arc Raiders, this pattern of game design seems to be entering into a peak.

I think what I don’t like about this category is the environment it creates for players, but on paper it feels like I should like it. It sounds like it should be interesting - there are more vectors for “success” than your traditional deathmatch or objective-based game. But I’m not someone who enjoys interacting with strangers in games in the way these games seem to want me to. I’ll admit that it is interesting from an outside perspective for every player to have proximity-based voice chat, but I’m someone who really appreciates the ability to feel able to limit how strangers can interact with me in a game.

Of course, plenty of games have voice chat, but in this wave of extraction shooters the proximity chat seems to be a cornerstone of the game’s design and its appeal. You really aren’t missing anything by muting a CoD or Halo lobby/team gameplay-wise unless you really like talking with strangers, but in Arc or Marathon the games’ more open-ended objectives lean on communication as a way to justify them (imo - I’m being sure to put imo here because I’m entering into stupid take territory).

It should be more interesting for there to be more to do than just kill each other, capture the flag, or be the last person standing, but nothing compels me to play these extraction games. Playing the game asocially isn’t engaging either. I find myself just hauling back junk so I can haul back more junk so I can haul back more junk. There is an element of danger and tension in losing your resources, except I don’t really care about any of these resources. In the extraction shooter, it feels like I’m just bringing back numbers to fill a bar so I can unlock another bar to fill. Lots of games have this at their core, but I find other interesting things to do in them.

Monster Hunter is certainly not an extraction shooter, but it shares some DNA in the form of the limited inventory and the concept of bringing back loot that essentially “fills a bar.” In MH, the monsters (or quest objectives) are the gate by which valuable resources are dropped, though the entire environment is filled with other collection points. Your goal is to complete a quest so that you can get those rewards. Get in, survive, get out (often getting out is automatically done after killing a monster), upgrade, go back in. It sounds a lot like Arc or Marathon, except I have put way too much of my time into Monster Hunter and am not expecting to play more of the shooters.

I think the why comes down to the ambiguous nature of the multiplayer. MH also has multiplayer, but you can only play co-operatively. You can bring co-operative teammates with you into extraction shooters (and for those unaware, these extraction shooters include numerous mob-type enemies that are AI-controlled like in a pure PvE game), but by the nature of the game other players who can hurt you are also there.

It seems that a lot of the appeal of these games are what you make of it. Do you want to fight players, help players, go it alone, be stealthy, be loud, etc. But personally, I find that mixing all of those playstyles into one place makes me less likely to play. I really don’t know why. Maybe it’s overwhelming? I’m still noodling on that.

Curious about the underscore’s thoughts on this. :microphone:

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My hypothesis is that the popularity of these types of games are driven by the “emergent” gameplay moments allowed for by the multiplayer PvPvE design of the game. Are these other players my friends? Are they my enemies? If we’re allies right now, will they turn on me later? Should I turn on them? Unfortunately, as someone whose strengths have never included competitive action/shooter games, the allure of this dynamic is pretty wasted on me and my sensibilities, I think.

My earliest experience with something like this that I can remember is The Division, where there were parts of the map you could queue into with your team, and it was very proto-extraction shooter: kill enemy NPCs, get loot, fight/avoid/help other player teams, extract from zone or die trying. In my experience, the added tension from the risk of other player interference was fun… right up until you got wiped by another team, losing all your loot/progress. Similarly, while not an extraction shooter necessarily, this was very much my experience with Sea of Thieves. It was a lot of fun operating a boat with your friends, sailing around, solving puzzles, and finding treasure… until you get run down by another group of players who board you, kill everybody, take all your treasure and sink your boat.

In both instances, I get that “that’s the whole point, man!” but like… I never thought it was fun, like, at all, haha. Maybe if you’re really good at killing other players in video games, it’s super fun. On the receiving end? Mostly a miserable time.

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Yeah I think I relate to this. I don’t really want to do a “will they won’t they” when it comes to trying to kill other players, though I don’t know why (maybe I just suck lol). I’d rather clearly be in the mindset of ally, neutral, or enemy, and not have to try to find that out mid-game. It does make for an interesting system on paper, and it probably makes for some great stories, but I don’t like experiencing that.

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Not that I’ve really played these kind of games but I think it might be a sort of offshoot of the Battle Royale genre? It seems like the appeal comes from you (and possibly a small team) trying to survive against everyone else and the ability to have emergent gameplay like making temporary truces both also exist in Battle Royale, sure the latter isn’t really encouraged by design in BR but it’s still very possible. I guess in a way they’re both different approaches to “it’s you against the world” kinda design.

pivoting to another thread topic but I kinda hate the term “Extraction Shooter” because it’s extremely non-descriptive, and I originally thought it applied more to games like Warframe or Deep Rock Galactic where you complete specific missions in a randomly generated environment and then extract at the end. There’s already a term for what “Extraction Shooter” is and it’s PvPvE, what’s wrong with just saying that :P

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I’ve been playing Marathon and it’s probably my first real engagement with this kind of thing. It does remind me a bit of Monster Hunter, but faster-paced in some ways. The objectives have to be achievable in the midst of having a round be so fragile.

There is some good tension and the game can be a lot of different things. A lot hinges on the unknowns in a situation – scouting out a spot, paying attention to sounds or other indicators of potential threats, all that is kind of amplified by having no automatic respawns. At the same time, being able to be revived as many times as a teammate can get to you adds a lot.

Then there’s the whole element of the escape. Since extraction points are limited and take time to activate, there’s one last chance for tension before you do or don’t manage to get out. I think that’s part and parcel with the idea – rounds aren’t too long, but a lot can take place in between beginning and ending, and there’s a structural arc between beginning and ending, with improvisation in the middle. That’s a fun way for a multiplayer kind of thing to have.

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It’s mostly finding good lot, or even loot that progresses your mission or storyline (like in the new Marathon) and then leaving without dying.

You can actually do all of the above without having to kill or even find a single player.

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I earlier said that these games sound good “on paper” but I think it’s absolutely true that the game can provide these experiences. Still, it doesn’t click for me. In general I like the uncertainty of the unknown, tension, and risk, but I don’t think I like it in this multiplayer environment. That said, I haven’t tried Marathon yet, but the price tag is a bit high for something I feel pretty confident I won’t click with.

(And if it isn’t clear, I’m not trying to bag on anyone for enjoying these games or to imply that they’re objectively bad in some way; I’m just trying to articulate my personal relationship to them - I like hearing about folks’ good experiences in the genre too).

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I don’t think i ever made the connection between monster hunter and extraction shooters, but i feel the differences there might help exemplify why one clicks and the other doesn’t.

Aside from the obvious action vs fps, i think the broad approach of extraction shooters paint a heavy contrast with monhun. Sure, in both you get into a session to leave with some kind of loot that will help you be more powerful, but in monhun you have a specific goal in mind, with a clear way of getting it. You don’t want non descriptive better loot to get non descriptive more powerful. You want to fight that monster, kill it, and make that specific weapon or armor, that you know beforehand will change your build in certain ways. Extraction shooters don’t have any of those certainties. You might get something better in a unexpect way, fight a PVE boss that you may not have been prepared for, and whatever you get when extracting will not help you understand and prepare for the next challenge. In one, knowledge is power, in the other, lack of knowledge is the point, and other players possible behaviours add to that.

Also, there is the matter of progress. There is no losing a run in monhun. You may not kill the monster, but there is no huge punishment for failing, and since knowledge is power, now you are more prepared. In a extraction shooter, not only the imprevisibility makes this mindset harder to have, you do lose progress. All of it. It’s the most punishing type of game, which makes it so tense. That makes it a huge positive when you want that tension, and a huge drawback when you just want to play a little. It’s a type of game where you always have to commit.

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I kinda feel like there’s not really “losing” a run in Marathon, either, although I know that might not be a widespread opinion. There are very few rounds where I don’t walk out having learned something, and when that happens, it’s probably because of a quick death that means I can just hop back in. I think there’s more similarity with MonHun and games like it then it might seem. There’s a lot to learn about the maps, how to approach different parts of them, timing, or strategies with different shells.

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I’ve never played an extraction shooter but I’m heavily put off by the concept, I think partly due to burnout from other competitive games.

But I think their recent success is interesting, especially compared to traditional PvP shooters.

A lot of it is (imo) down to the gamble - players can opt to take their loot and secure a small win, or keep playing for more. The feeling of pulling a gamble off is addictive, even for spectators.

I’ve heard positive things about the Arc Raiders playerbase, and I wonder if that might also be a factor. You couldn’t pay me to play CS2 again, and it’s purely down to the awful playerbase.

Anyway since Marathon was mentioned, I am a little sad that a game with that level of potential was made to follow a trend. Imagine a game based on that short film they made for it! Oh, and the art theft too.

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Yeah, I do think an important thing to note is that there can be a kind of gradient of experiences across the many games that comprise a genre, especially as the genre matures and you hit subsequent games that were informed by the games that came before them. Games like Arc Raiders and Marathon have the benefits and drawbacks of existing post-Tarkov, and I have no doubt many of the design choices made in their development are no doubt influenced by that game and others that came before them.

One example I can speak to myself are for battle royale games. I remember early ones like H1Z1 and PUBG being fascinating for many of the same reasons an extraction shooter is: high tension multiplayer sandbox with emergent gameplay, “building your story” throughout the life of a match, etc. Ultimately, I found these games daunting to approach for the same reason I find extraction shooters daunting to approach. However, eventually Apex Legends came out, which introduced a (novel to me at the time, at least) mechanics where you could grab an item off your fallen teammates body, take it to certain designated spots on the map, and revive them. It was genius to me, in that it managed to act as a sort of pressure release valve for me (second chance! I didn’t necessarily just “waste” a bunch of time playing only to get stomped by way better players) while introducing its own additional frictions (teammate has to get to your body, then get that item to the rez station, and then you don’t have any of your gear when you come back).

I don’t know if Apex Legends was the first battle royale to do that or not, but it was the exact tweaking of the tension knobs I needed to better appreciate the genre and flip from “this is more miserable than fun” to “this is more fun than miserable”. I have no doubt there is or will be something parallel to be found for me in the extraction shooter genre too - I just haven’t found it yet.

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I tried Marathon tonight and comments about the gunplay and general art direction aside, I felt a familiar sense of disinterest the moment I started seeing various flavors of “scrap”, “component”, and “currency” in all the game’s chests. I’m still trying to pinpoint why this disengages me here when it doesn’t in say, MonHun, or a Survival Crafter, or a game like STALKER.

I feel like I want “loot” I find to feel more like Diablo, not like this. All video game rewards can probably be abstracted to currencies and resources, but in extraction shooters it just feels so blatant.

An extraction-ish game I enjoyed last year was Hyper Light Breaker (before the extraction mechanics were removed) - which was a PVE game about getting into a map, finding goodies, completing objectives, and getting out. Most of what I was finding were upgrades for my character - Diablo-esque equipment and weapons that I was constantly hot-swapping in and out of my build and creating a stash of back home. This system also had some problems (my stash quickly became REALLY good and I stopped interacting with a lot of loot) but I wasnt just grabbing inventory-filling currencies most of the time.

The PvE elements in Marathon are fun - I feel like I would have been fine with the game being built around that. But it’s the ambiguity that multiplayer adds that makes me feel unfulfilled at the end of each run I think. Again I’m aware that this adds interesting wrinkles and variety, except I am not interested by it and feel aimless most of the time. It feels like a very personal problem, and more power to folks who enjoy it. I certainly don’t dilike any of the exraction shooters I have played (GenAI slop in Arc notwithstanding) but I don’t feel any desire to play them either.

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Well, at least in Marathon, you do contracts for different employers and all those contracts progress the story while also giving you rewards, which is just the ability to buy better equipment, lore entries in the codex, as well as unlocking new dialogue with your employer and possibly new employers.

Just recently people found terminals in the maps where Durandal, the main villain of the franchise, was speaking to them, that led to him providing numbers for an IP address you can put in your browser and it led to a website with live security cameras showing the inside of the Marathon, which turned out to be the new map that’s only available on weekends, the Cryo Archive.

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Haven’t played Marathon yet, that does sound cool

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honestly I’ve been kind of tempted to try Marathon except for the fact that the game’s anti-cheat blocks Linux for no good reason, which is frustrating.